Adobe's actions speak loudly about their lack of support for ColdFusion
ColdFusion
I keep hearing from Adobe that it stands behind ColdFusion today and from here on out, and by all accounts if you based your perception on the continual development of the product you would think that it is definitely a part of their focus. We are already hearing CF9 features for goodness sake!
If this is true, why is it that the Adobe marketing seems so out of step with this message?
When I attended the Flex 3 kickoff meeting for the Dallas Flex User Group, they used an Adobe presentation that went into some detail about talked about server-side language interoperability with Flex, explicitly citing .Net, Java, PHP, yet they apparently didn't feel that their own product ColdFusion made the cut. Given how gracefully the two work together, coupled with the fact that it is their product, how can that really be excused? Actually as I look back at that post, I pondered that question here.
This past week someone posted the following image to our ColdFusion User Group list asking why Adobe would so obviously exclude ColdFusion when showing showing various languages talking to Flex and posted this image from the Adobe site.
***EDIT: Adobe has updated the image below since the time of this blog posting***
I mean... come ON! That seems like such a glaring and purposeful ommission.
Earlier this year, I received the shirt below from Adobe. It irked me when I got it, but after seeing this theme of publicly dismissing ColdFusion over and over, I took a picture of it last night for this post. Here is the "entire" Adobe family as seen through their eyes.
Adobe, I truly want to believe that you support ColdFusion and I repeatedly try to convince my my employers and clients that you are, but over and over, you continually weaken my case.
If this is true, why is it that the Adobe marketing seems so out of step with this message?
When I attended the Flex 3 kickoff meeting for the Dallas Flex User Group, they used an Adobe presentation that went into some detail about talked about server-side language interoperability with Flex, explicitly citing .Net, Java, PHP, yet they apparently didn't feel that their own product ColdFusion made the cut. Given how gracefully the two work together, coupled with the fact that it is their product, how can that really be excused? Actually as I look back at that post, I pondered that question here.
This past week someone posted the following image to our ColdFusion User Group list asking why Adobe would so obviously exclude ColdFusion when showing showing various languages talking to Flex and posted this image from the Adobe site.
***EDIT: Adobe has updated the image below since the time of this blog posting***
I mean... come ON! That seems like such a glaring and purposeful ommission.
Earlier this year, I received the shirt below from Adobe. It irked me when I got it, but after seeing this theme of publicly dismissing ColdFusion over and over, I took a picture of it last night for this post. Here is the "entire" Adobe family as seen through their eyes.
Adobe, I truly want to believe that you support ColdFusion and I repeatedly try to convince my my employers and clients that you are, but over and over, you continually weaken my case.
walter.kimbrough said:
Dave, I noticed in the Adobe published book on Flex that I got a year ago, ColdFusion/Remote Objects got a very small mention.
In fact, I had to rely on a brief tutorial in a pdf someone on the net put together to fully understand how to even use the MXML to do so.
It's awful strange, considering how easy it is to use and all.
In fact, I had to rely on a brief tutorial in a pdf someone on the net put together to fully understand how to even use the MXML to do so.
It's awful strange, considering how easy it is to use and all.
Matt Williams said:
Interesting observations Dave. It does seem like mixed messages: new Community based initiatives announced at CFUnited while other exposure ignored the product. Perhaps they are unsure of how to position CF and where it makes sense to market it.
It will be interesting to see how things play out with the new open-source options and various community driven aspects.
It will be interesting to see how things play out with the new open-source options and various community driven aspects.
Dave Shuck said:
I have always said that Adobe does a completely awesome job marketing ColdFusion ... to CF developers!
I mean seriously, we always know the state of the product, and some sense of the direction, new releases are met with incredible enthusiasm, product tours pull in big crowds, etc.
However, no one beyond of our myopic view has any idea that ColdFusion has turned into the mature and incredibly powerful platform that it has - that is... if they even know it is still around!
If they put the same effort into marketing to people who weren't already fans, I would love to see what would happen.
I mean seriously, we always know the state of the product, and some sense of the direction, new releases are met with incredible enthusiasm, product tours pull in big crowds, etc.
However, no one beyond of our myopic view has any idea that ColdFusion has turned into the mature and incredibly powerful platform that it has - that is... if they even know it is still around!
If they put the same effort into marketing to people who weren't already fans, I would love to see what would happen.
Jean Moniatte said:
Very good post and great observations! Whenever the question comes up, Adobe's answer is always the "No worries, this is our strongest release, sales have never been better" blahbla.
Every day that goes by makes BlueDragon a smarter choice.
Every day that goes by makes BlueDragon a smarter choice.
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Michael Traher said:
Lack of marketing is certainly a worry. Perhaps now is the time for serious CFML users to consider the alternatives such as Railo and BD. I just checked out the flex overview and the slide you show above is actually saying 'unlike PHP, ASP, .NET and JSP FLEX runs on the client' so I guess if they had included CF in the list it maight have seemed like including CF in a negative context.
Dave Shuck said:
I think it would be a stretch to say that there would be a negative connotation there, but in a bizarro marketing world, I guess logic only carries you so far.
As for Railo, OpenBD, or whatever... I think the surge of recent conversation about it is pretty exciting. When Aaron and I started rewriting InstantSpot on Railo about this time last year, people generally discounted the entire notion. That said we did run across a *critical* bug, but Gert and crew jumped on it and fixed it immediately. Now that Railo is backed by JBoss (and implicitly RedHat), and now that there is OpenBD with a stellar team, I think that some of these alternative CFML processors have a real chance of success. To me, it is a win for everyone involved if they do succeed.
* Adobe wins if they draw more developers into the language (although I am not entirely sure that they care to do so!)
* Railo/OpenBD win for obvious reasons.
* We as developers win by the different engines competing to be the best!
As for Railo, OpenBD, or whatever... I think the surge of recent conversation about it is pretty exciting. When Aaron and I started rewriting InstantSpot on Railo about this time last year, people generally discounted the entire notion. That said we did run across a *critical* bug, but Gert and crew jumped on it and fixed it immediately. Now that Railo is backed by JBoss (and implicitly RedHat), and now that there is OpenBD with a stellar team, I think that some of these alternative CFML processors have a real chance of success. To me, it is a win for everyone involved if they do succeed.
* Adobe wins if they draw more developers into the language (although I am not entirely sure that they care to do so!)
* Railo/OpenBD win for obvious reasons.
* We as developers win by the different engines competing to be the best!
Mike Rankin said:
You could look at the shirt and think that all those are providing client content and not server functions.
Nitai Aventaggiato said:
Thank you for this post. I always thought I was the only one seeing Adobe not pushing CF on Flex as hard as they do with PHP, .NET, etc.
Today at CFUnited you will see that we, the OpenBD team, will introduce some really cool stuff that will help boost the CFML community and language.
Today at CFUnited you will see that we, the OpenBD team, will introduce some really cool stuff that will help boost the CFML community and language.
Luciano Oliveira said:
I can only partially agree with your observations. Acrobat isn't on the t-shirt either: does it mean Adobe is not behind it?
I agree, Adobe (and Macromedia, before it) does a terrible job at marketing ColdFusion. I attend both .NET and CF user groups monthly meetings in the DC area, and the average age difference between the members baffles me. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against being in the 40's, as I am there myself. But with M$ heavily marketing and giving away its development tools to the educational community, does anyone want to guess what are these kids learning, and what will they be using and advocating when they leave school?
It took a while, but Adobe finally noticed it: a while back, it made Flex free for students, and today at CFUnited, announced it will do the same with ColdFusion. Hopefully, this will bring to the amazing CF community much needed fresh blood.
I agree, Adobe (and Macromedia, before it) does a terrible job at marketing ColdFusion. I attend both .NET and CF user groups monthly meetings in the DC area, and the average age difference between the members baffles me. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against being in the 40's, as I am there myself. But with M$ heavily marketing and giving away its development tools to the educational community, does anyone want to guess what are these kids learning, and what will they be using and advocating when they leave school?
It took a while, but Adobe finally noticed it: a while back, it made Flex free for students, and today at CFUnited, announced it will do the same with ColdFusion. Hopefully, this will bring to the amazing CF community much needed fresh blood.
Rey Bango said:
Your post is like deja vu for me, Dave, and I've forwarded it to Adobe. I think they've done more to get CF some attention but if that t-shirt is recent, then there's obviously a disconnect somewhere.
Ben Forta said:
Ugh! As much as this irks you, it irks me more. Really. Truthfully, Adobe in general has made massive progress in supporting and promoting ColdFusion (especially compared to Macromedia) - not enough for my liking, but progress nonetheless. But it's a huge company, 7500 people at last count, and not everyone all they need to. Heck, over the 80 products we sell now, I've never used or touch over half of them. Not that I am excusing this kind of screw-up, just providing some context. Having said that, can you please e-mail me the presentation that was used? I need to go an e-beat-up some people it seems!
--- Ben
--- Ben
Ben Forta said:
As a follow-up to my first comment ...
That graphic should be fixed, I agree (although the graphic in isolation is taken out of context, it is part of a set of slides that does indeed include CF).
The t-shirt, well, come on dude, teams make their own t-shirts and do what they want with them - I think you're overreaching on that one.
The preso is what irks me, and when you send me a copy I'll look into.
--- Ben
That graphic should be fixed, I agree (although the graphic in isolation is taken out of context, it is part of a set of slides that does indeed include CF).
The t-shirt, well, come on dude, teams make their own t-shirts and do what they want with them - I think you're overreaching on that one.
The preso is what irks me, and when you send me a copy I'll look into.
--- Ben
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Chris H said:
Ben: the graphic is also seen here: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/?navID=gettingsta...
just stumbled on it after browsing the Flex DevNet.
ColdFusion is mentioned in the sentence above though (but last in the list). still, who knows where else this shows up.
we know you want to push ColdFusion, now if Adobe were as avid as you, we'd overtake PHP and ASP.Net in just a few months ;D
the shirt not including ColdFusion is understandable, the logos would go all the way to the back if you'd inlude the Acrobat, LiveCycle, After Effects, InDesign, etc., etc. logos as well =D
just stumbled on it after browsing the Flex DevNet.
ColdFusion is mentioned in the sentence above though (but last in the list). still, who knows where else this shows up.
we know you want to push ColdFusion, now if Adobe were as avid as you, we'd overtake PHP and ASP.Net in just a few months ;D
the shirt not including ColdFusion is understandable, the logos would go all the way to the back if you'd inlude the Acrobat, LiveCycle, After Effects, InDesign, etc., etc. logos as well =D
Dave Shuck said:
Ben, I have no doubt in my mind that these things get you worked up as well. In my earlier comment when I said "I have always said that Adobe does a completely awesome job marketing ColdFusion ... to CF developers!", you are quite obviously a *huge* part of that effort and your passion and commitment to ColdFusion is incessant and without question.
It is sort of strange to me though that Adobe is obviously pushing an aggressive release schedule with ColdFusion and there is no doubt that they have allowed - if not encouraged - the ColdFusion unit to push hard towards advancing the product. With that effort it seems natural that they would want to show it off outside of their built-in fan club... aka us!
As for the t-shirt, I know that groups can make their own shirts, but this shirt was sent through the Adobe User Group program to a User Group manager to promote their products. You would think that they would include the products that the managers represent. I mean come on... AI, FL, FX, and no CF? Just seems silly.
I know that these are anecdotal pieces of evidence and they are not damning by themselves, however, I don't think my perception of this pattern is unique to me. You may notice the only person that disagrees in these comments is an Adobe employee, although I certainly wouldn't name names! ;)
RE: the preso materials - I just sent an email to the manager of the d-flex group and asked if he still has a copy of the materials from that meeting. I will shoot you an email when I hear back from him.
I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts Ben.
It is sort of strange to me though that Adobe is obviously pushing an aggressive release schedule with ColdFusion and there is no doubt that they have allowed - if not encouraged - the ColdFusion unit to push hard towards advancing the product. With that effort it seems natural that they would want to show it off outside of their built-in fan club... aka us!
As for the t-shirt, I know that groups can make their own shirts, but this shirt was sent through the Adobe User Group program to a User Group manager to promote their products. You would think that they would include the products that the managers represent. I mean come on... AI, FL, FX, and no CF? Just seems silly.
I know that these are anecdotal pieces of evidence and they are not damning by themselves, however, I don't think my perception of this pattern is unique to me. You may notice the only person that disagrees in these comments is an Adobe employee, although I certainly wouldn't name names! ;)
RE: the preso materials - I just sent an email to the manager of the d-flex group and asked if he still has a copy of the materials from that meeting. I will shoot you an email when I hear back from him.
I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts Ben.
Kristen Schofield said:
Hi - Thanks for bringing to light that image - we're getting it fixed. I am also having internal discussions on this thread topic now. The shirt doesn't concern me much - we have a lot of schwag (I think that's how you spell it) and a lot of it shows CF/Flex/AIR together and leaves other images out - the shirt doesn't mean much. I am concerned about the issue you raise on the user group tour and how CF is positioned. Allow me to speculate.. various people have different comfort levels with different server-side technologies and tend to discuss the ones that they know and are most comfortable with. If that's the case, it's not a good reason not to discuss CF, nor is any other reason, since it is an important part of the Adobe technology platform but could be the inocuous rather than purposeful reason for it not being discussed. As I mentioned, I am internally working on this and hope to have it resolved for next time. I feel very strongly about this and will do everything in my power to improve it. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
- Kristen
- Kristen
Rodrigo Celebrone said:
This seems Adobe wants not work more Coldfusion, I'll learn other server-side language, i am thinking work with "Java" or I'll waiting for more support in OpenBD.
" No brasil existem programadores coldfusion tambem Adobe... "
" No brasil existem programadores coldfusion tambem Adobe... "
Rachel Luxemburg said:
Dave -- that's the t-shirt from the "lunchbox" kit, isn't it?
As Ben and Kristen have pointed out, not every team at Adobe has the exact same focus. That kit was not meant to demonstrate the entire Adobe family, rather it highlighted a specific product cross-section as part of a specific promotion.
A new generation of that kit is in the works, and I'll pass your comments along to the folks putting it together.
As Ben and Kristen have pointed out, not every team at Adobe has the exact same focus. That kit was not meant to demonstrate the entire Adobe family, rather it highlighted a specific product cross-section as part of a specific promotion.
A new generation of that kit is in the works, and I'll pass your comments along to the folks putting it together.
Dave Shuck said:
Hi Rachel! Yup, that is the one that came in the lunchbox kit. While I *completely* understand that the focus of each group is different, I think my main issue is that it is representative of a pattern that I have seen, rather than a slam dunk piece of evidence on the matter. I think that any of us on this thread look at that shirt and look at the technologies that were included, there is an obvious blue square missing!
If you guys are satisfied that Adobe is promoting ColdFusion the best that it can, then there is little that I can do to convince you otherwise. However the fact that a number of developers question it at least makes me feel that my perception has some amount of validity.
I really don't want you guys to take this as a pointless gripe session. My intent is only for Adobe to make ColdFusion stronger in the marketplace. It would be good for all of us! :)
If you guys are satisfied that Adobe is promoting ColdFusion the best that it can, then there is little that I can do to convince you otherwise. However the fact that a number of developers question it at least makes me feel that my perception has some amount of validity.
I really don't want you guys to take this as a pointless gripe session. My intent is only for Adobe to make ColdFusion stronger in the marketplace. It would be good for all of us! :)
johnb said:
The screen shot they used is from the 'Introductory Video' off of the Flex Start page in Flex Builder 3 hosted on learn.adobe.com
Nathan Strutz said:
My overall take is that, truthfully, Adobe is a big company with 2 or 3 common household names (flash, photoshop, acrobat). I know plenty of people who say "Open that picture in Adobe" as if the company was photoshop itself.
ColdFusion is a server-side language, and this category contains NO household terms. None but the programmers even know php, asp, cf, jsp, etc., these are technologies that normal people really couldn't care less about (unless the online tool they're using is broken).
Historically, there's no glamour in programming, but it's rewarding and fun, so we do it.
Of course CF has the technology to rewrite history. It's so easy and integrates so well, HTML writers everywhere should make it their next logical step to web authoring. It just makes sense.
Now, the shocking thing about the shirts was that they sent them to the CFUG groups as well. It's ok to print them, I guess, but then to rub them in the faces of the dozens of user groups... that hurts.
ColdFusion is a server-side language, and this category contains NO household terms. None but the programmers even know php, asp, cf, jsp, etc., these are technologies that normal people really couldn't care less about (unless the online tool they're using is broken).
Historically, there's no glamour in programming, but it's rewarding and fun, so we do it.
Of course CF has the technology to rewrite history. It's so easy and integrates so well, HTML writers everywhere should make it their next logical step to web authoring. It just makes sense.
Now, the shocking thing about the shirts was that they sent them to the CFUG groups as well. It's ok to print them, I guess, but then to rub them in the faces of the dozens of user groups... that hurts.
Calvin said:
Not sure that I agree that ColdFusion doesn't need to be on that shirt. At least two of the technologies require a back-end technology to be effective. And all of them plus 'some' back-end technology make up the entire connected experience.
The blue Cf should be there for no other reasons than the above and to encourage folks to say, what is that? It's the missing piece to the full story that allows Adobe to tell a complete story from start to finish in the connected world.
The blue Cf should be there for no other reasons than the above and to encourage folks to say, what is that? It's the missing piece to the full story that allows Adobe to tell a complete story from start to finish in the connected world.
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